Excerpts of Apple Executives' Senate Committee Testimony on Tax Policy

Three Apple executives, CEO Tim Cook, CFO Peter Oppenheimer, and head of tax operations Phillip A. Bullock, appeared in front of the U.S. Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigation earlier today, testifying about Apple's tax policies.

MacRumors has a rough transcript of the hearing, while the full event is viewable on C-SPAN. The full hearing was quite long, but here are some selected excerpts from our transcript.

Subcommittee
At the beginning of the hearing, Senators are allowed to make whatever opening statements they wish. Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) gave a spirited defense of Apple, saying he was "offended" by the hearing.

"Tell me a politician who is up here and doesn't try to minimize his taxes… Tell me what Apple has done is illegal. I am offended by a government… that convenes a hearing to bully one of America's greatest success stories… If anyone should be on trial here, it should be Congress. I frankly think the committee should apologize to Apple."

Instead of Apple executives, we should have brought in a giant mirror. This problem is solely and completely caused by our tax code. This committee should look in the mirror. "I find it abominable."

We need to apologize to Apple, compliment them for the job creation they're doing, and get on with our job and redo the tax code.

Apple CEO Tim Cook and CFO Peter Oppenheimer also made opening statements. Cook noted that Apple is responsible for creating or supporting 600,000 jobs in the United States, and disclosed for the first time the the upcoming 'Made in the USA' line of Mac computers would be manufactured in Texas, with parts coming from a wide variety of states.

Much of the hearing would focus on Apple's use of Irish subsidiaries to avoid paying U.S. income taxes on revenue generated overseas from the sale of products. Senators had accused Apple of having "sham" corporate entities in Ireland that served no purpose except for avoiding tax liability. Hitting back at that accusation, Cook said that Apple's operations in Ireland were not shell corporations, but had actual functions.

Apple has real operations, in real places, with Apple employees selling real products to real customers. We not only comply with the laws but we comply with the spirit of the laws. We don't move intellectual property offshore and use it to sell products back on the U.S. Our foreign subsidiaries pull 70% of our cash because of the rapid growth of our international business. We use this money to finance construction of Apple retail stores around the world and fund production of products. It would be very expensive to bring that cash back to the United States. Unfortunately the tax code has not kept up with the digital age. We are handicapped in relation to our foreign competitors who do not have such constraints on the free movement of capital.

Senator John McCain (R-AZ), asked Cook whether Apple's actions overseas created an unfair advantage for them compared to smaller companies that operate strictly inside the US and cannot create such overseas entities.

McCain: If you look at the 35% [corporate] tax burden, that I'm sure we're in agreement is way too high, you said the purpose of AOI [an Irish subsidiary] is to ease administrative burdens. Isn't it obvious that you are not bearing the same tax burden as if you were bearing in the United States? This gives you some advantage over smaller companies located strictly in the US?

Cook: Sir, I have tremendous respect for you. I see this differently from you. Apple is earning these profits outside the US. By law and regulation, these are not taxable in the US. AOI invests that money overseas and then the interest from those investments is taxed in the US. I see this as a very complex topic and I'm glad we're having the discussion. Honestly, I don't see it as being unfair. I am not an unfair person. That's now who we are as a company and who I am as an individual. I do not see it that way.

In a moment of levity, the 76-year old McCain expressed a concern that many iPhone owners share: "I'm out of time, but why the hell do I have to keep updating the apps on my iPhone? Why can't you fix that?" Cook responded that Apple was "looking to do better all the time."

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-MO), after praising Apple and its products, asked Cook about what's keeping Apple headquartered in the United States and why the company doesn't move overseas where the fiscal climate might be more favorable.

McCaskill: What would it cost to move out of California or move entirely to Ireland or China? What keeps you from moving on a cost analysis basis?

Cook: We're an American company. We're proud to be an American company. The vast amount of our R&D is in California. We love it there.

McCaskill: It's an intangible?

Cook: It's who we are as people. We're an American company whether we're selling in China or Egypt. We're an American company. It has never entered my mind that we would move to another country. It's beyond my imagination and I have a wild imagination. It's beyond it.

One of the major reasons for Cook's appearance in front of the committee was for Apple to put forth its own plan for corporate tax reform.

For one thing, Cook said the U.S. corporate income tax rate should be in the mid-20 percent range, while repatriation tax rates for income earned outside the U.S. should be somewhere in the single digits. Cook said that Congress should take a tip from Apple and focus on simplicity.

Apple has always believed in the simple, not the complex. You can see this in our products and in the way we conduct ourselves. It is in this spirit that we recommend a dramatic simplification of the corporate tax code. We make this recommendation with our eyes wide open, fully recognizing that this would likely result in an increase in Apple's U.S. taxes. We strongly believe that such reform would be fair to all taxpayers and would keep the U.S. competitive.

Finally, in his final line of questioning to Cook and Oppenheimer, Senator Levin went on the offensive, arguing that while Apple may not be violating the letter of the law, it was certainly violating the spirit of it.

By routing most foreign earnings to an Irish subsidiary -- a subsidiary that, in Levin's view, existed solely to avoid paying U.S. income tax -- Apple was doing a disservice to the American public by not paying their fair share.

Apple does pay U.S. income tax on earnings from the Americas (Mexico, Canada and Brazil most notably), but some two-thirds of its worldwide income eventually get routed to Irish subsidiaries.

Levin: And all the profits from Mexico and Canada and Argentina are taxed in the United States. But you made a decision to shift economic value overseas and the result is that most of your profits are not taxed. You're an American company. You're proud of it, we're proud of it. The result of these arrangements is that most of your profit is now in Ireland in these companies that don't exist. Of course we have to change this system. But to change it, we have to understand what is going on. What is going on is a huge loss of revenue to the United States. We've got these corporations that are able to shift profits to places where you don't pay income tax on it. We better understand that if we're going to correct it. That's our purpose here today. To shed a light on that. I hope that purpose has been achieved. We cannot continue a system where the company, a multinational company, is phenomenally as successful as yours and can make a decision, sitting down in 2008 as to where the profits will flow.

Where the R&D is 95% in the United States. You got R&D tax credits, all the benefits of living in this country. You're sitting there, unilaterally deciding whether to continue a system where profits are shifted to a place where they are not available to the American taxman. Everyone agrees that we need to change this system. In order for us to change this system, we've got to understand what is going on. You make a unilateral decision, three Apple employees in 2008, essentially decided where these profits will be taxed or not taxed. It's not right. That is not right. To leave that decision, it seems to me, the way it is decided so unilaterally, that a company can shift its value to a tax haven -- that's what Ireland is -- I know its your intention and I applaud your view. I know its not easy to come in front of the spotlight. It's important for us to write the laws. You agreed Mr. Cook that we need to rewrite these laws. Thank you for coming.

Following the testimony of Apple's executives, representatives from the US Treasury and the IRS appeared and largely confirmed that Apple's activities appeared to be entirely legal.

Note: Due to the political nature of the discussion regarding this topic, the comment thread is located in our Politics, Religion, Social Issues forum. All MacRumors forum members and site visitors are welcome to read and follow the thread, but posting is limited to forum members with at least 100 posts.

Popular Stories

AirPods Pro 3 Mock Feature

AirPods Pro 3 Just Months Away – Here's What We Know

Friday April 18, 2025 5:16 am PDT by
Despite being more than two years old, Apple's AirPods Pro 2 still dominate the premium wireless‑earbud space, thanks to a potent mix of top‑tier audio, class‑leading noise cancellation, and Apple's habit of delivering major new features through software updates. With AirPods Pro 3 widely expected to arrive in 2025, prospective buyers now face a familiar dilemma: snap up the proven...
CarPlay Hero

Apple Releases Wireless CarPlay Fix

Wednesday April 16, 2025 11:28 am PDT by
If you have been experiencing issues with wireless CarPlay in your vehicle lately, it was likely due to a software bug that has now been fixed. Apple released iOS 18.4.1 today, and the update's release notes say it "addresses a rare issue that prevents wireless CarPlay connection in certain vehicles." If wireless CarPlay was acting up for you, updating your iPhone to iOS 18.4.1 should...
iphone 16 pro models 1

17 Reasons to Wait for the iPhone 17

Thursday April 17, 2025 4:12 am PDT by
Apple's iPhone development roadmap runs several years into the future and the company is continually working with suppliers on several successive iPhone models simultaneously, which is why we often get rumored features months ahead of launch. The iPhone 17 series is no different, and we already have a good idea of what to expect from Apple's 2025 smartphone lineup. If you skipped the iPhone...
Beyond iPhone 13 Better Triad

Apple's 20th Anniversary iPhone May Finally Go All Screen

Tuesday April 15, 2025 6:31 am PDT by
Apple is preparing a "bold" new iPhone Pro model for the iPhone's 20th anniversary in 2027, according to Bloomberg's Mark Gurman. As part of what's being described as a "major shake-up," Apple is said to be developing a design that makes more extensive use of glass – and this could point directly to the display itself. Here's the case for Apple releasing a truly all-screen iPhone with no...
maxresdefault

iPhone 17 Pro Launching Later This Year With These 12 New Features

Sunday April 13, 2025 7:52 am PDT by
While the iPhone 17 Pro and iPhone 17 Pro Max are not expected to launch until September, there are already plenty of rumors about the devices. Subscribe to the MacRumors YouTube channel for more videos. Below, we recap key changes rumored for the iPhone 17 Pro models as of April 2025: Aluminum frame: iPhone 17 Pro models are rumored to have an aluminum frame, whereas the iPhone 15 Pro and ...
iOS 19 Roundup Feature

iOS 19 Will Add These New Features to Your iPhone

Tuesday April 15, 2025 7:37 am PDT by
The first iOS 19 beta is less than two months away, and there are already a handful of new features that are expected with the update. Apple should release the first iOS 19 beta to developers immediately following the WWDC 2025 keynote, which is scheduled for Monday, June 9. Following beta testing, the update should be released to the general public in September. Below, we recap the key...
top stories 2025 04 19

Top Stories: iPhone 17 Pro Rumors, CarPlay Bug Fix, and More

Saturday April 19, 2025 6:00 am PDT by
This week saw rumor updates on the iPhone 17 Pro and next-generation Vision Pro, while a minor iOS 18.4.1 update delivered not just security fixes but also a fix for some CarPlay issues. We also looked ahead at what else is in Apple's pipeline for the rest of 2025 and even the 20th-anniversary iPhone coming in 2027, so read on below for all the details on these stories and more! iPhone 17 ...
tvOS 18 Thumb 1

Apple Releases tvOS 18.4.1

Wednesday April 16, 2025 10:04 am PDT by
Apple today released tvOS 18.4.1, a minor update to the tvOS 18 operating system that came out last September. tvOS 18.4.1 comes two weeks after Apple released tvOS 18.4, and it is available for the Apple TV 4K and Apple TV HD models. tvOS 18.4.1 can be downloaded using the Settings app on the ‌Apple TV‌. Open up Settings and go to System > Software Update to get the new software....
Apple TV Plus Feature 2 Magenta and Blue

Apple TV+ Available at Significantly Lower Price Until Next Week

Friday April 18, 2025 11:42 am PDT by
Apple TV+ is currently available at a much lower price than usual, but time is running out if you want to take advantage of the offer. In the U.S., new and qualified returning customers can subscribe to Apple TV+ for just $2.99 per month, for three months. Afterwards, regular pricing of $9.99 per month applies. The offer is available in the Apple TV app, and at tv.apple.com, through April...

Top Rated Comments

wiz329 Avatar
156 months ago
I'm sick and tired of Apple being unresponsive and inconsiderate when it comes to taxes.

Because you obviously do all you can to maximize your tax burden.
Score: 79 Votes (Like | Disagree)
Will do good Avatar
156 months ago
So because someone creates jobs; they don't have to pay taxes?

Did they break any laws? No.
Score: 67 Votes (Like | Disagree)
Doctor Q Avatar
156 months ago
The solution is clear: Put Jonathan Ive in charge of redesigning the tax code.
Score: 61 Votes (Like | Disagree)
HyperX13 Avatar
156 months ago
Way to go Rand Paul! Liberals and Democrats live in la la land and have no understanding how business and job creation work.

Apple is a success story!
Score: 57 Votes (Like | Disagree)
rdowns Avatar
156 months ago
Levin and McCain should be embarrassed for that sham of a hearing. They picked on Apple because they knew the cameras would follow. They should have heard from GE, Exxon Mobil and Wall Street.

I'm sick and tired of Apple being unresponsive and inconsiderate when it comes to taxes.

Oh, Will. How do you manage to get the first comment bashing Apple is so many threads?
Score: 55 Votes (Like | Disagree)
edk99 Avatar
156 months ago
So because someone creates jobs; they don't have to pay taxes?
They paid over 6 BILLION in taxes in 2012. How much did you pay?
Score: 35 Votes (Like | Disagree)